Confronting Discrimination In The Workplace

Welcome to the Vantage HR Influencers Podcast. This podcast is sponsored by Vantage Circle, the simple and AI-powered rewards and recognition platform for employee engagement.

Subtle or blatant discrimination can be seen everywhere in our day-to-day lives. The workplace is no exception. However, many leaders choose to believe that discrimination in the workplace doesn't exist. Discrimination can be in the little acts themselves. Sometimes the leader of an organization can remain oblivious to the judgment that an employee might face from colleagues, seniors, or managers.

Gautam: Hello listeners, welcome back to Vantage Influencers Podcast. I am your host, Gautam. In today's episode, we will discuss confronting workplace discrimination, and for a topic so intense and sensitive, we have just the right person. Let's welcome Eva Krishna. Eva is currently working as HRBP at Reliance Retail, with four years and three months of experience in the HRBP domain, responsible for ELCM as her roles and responsibilities. She is a person who strongly believes in a cause-and-effect relationship. As an HR person, she is very focused on introducing and continuing human touch in this business function, but not compromising on upskilling and introducing technology simultaneously.

Hello Eva, a warm welcome to the show, and thank you so much for joining us today.

Eva Krishna: Hi Gautam. Hi to your listeners. I am very, very fortunate to be part of your podcast today, and as you said and suggested at the start, it is indeed a very sensitive matter when it comes to workplace discrimination. So thanks a lot.

Gautam: Thank you so much, Eva, for joining us today. I think you're one of the best people to talk about this, considering you work in retail as well, and I think it's quite an intense workplace where so much keeps happening every day. So before we get into the main topic, would you like to brief us about yourself, in case there's something I might have missed mentioning?

Eva Krishna: Sure, sure. As you've already introduced me, I'll only add that I spent time at another Reliance Group company before moving to Reliance Retail, about three and a half years of my total experience, and I've been part of a lot of geographical changes. I've worked in the East, I've worked in the North, I'm currently working in the North, and I've also worked in the West. So there's been a cultural shift throughout my career, and I've handled the full employee life cycle, as you mentioned, everything is taken care of by me there. Also, since joining retail, my exposure has shifted more into the B2B segment. So that's what's extra, apart from what you've already said about me. That's all from me.

Gautam: That's great. So, considering you've come from so many cultural backgrounds and lived those experiences, I think when you see so many changes, you also come across various forms of discrimination, from culture to culture, place to place, region to region. So, across your entire career, what do you think can be considered discrimination in the workplace?

Eva Krishna: If you talk about discrimination at the workplace, I'd like to highlight that there's a lot of legal groundwork related to it, if you go and search for it, but we're often not aware that there are rules and regulations around maintaining zero discrimination, and this isn't limited to the workplace itself, even calling out somebody by a nickname can fall under it. There are a lot of things we can consider workplace discrimination.

I've been very fortunate on this front, because I joined an organization where everything is in place and all the processes are very strict, so I haven't faced discrimination the way other people might have. But I'd say we're often unaware of things we think are "just for fun," until you actually read the policies and documents, where they're categorized as discrimination. For example, if we crack offensive jokes, or if my name is A and I call out B and make fun of it, that can also be considered discrimination.

As an individual, I've always been very strong and upfront if I face discrimination. As part of an organization, we need to know when to draw a line with our colleagues and managers, because sometimes we ourselves give people the chance to discriminate against us. So I think if we're conscious about these things and take a stand for ourselves, that alone would stop maybe 30 to 40 percent of discrimination at the workplace.

Gautam: Sure, I think when you say it's sometimes just the small things, people say "oh, it's just for fun," but it could be casual homophobia or casual bullying that people don't realize might trigger others. Can you cite a few more examples of workplace discrimination? We usually think of making fun of someone's cultural background, sexuality, or gender, but are there other examples?

Eva Krishna: Of course. Age can also be considered a form of discrimination, for instance, choosing not to hire or retain someone above a certain age, when a person who is, say, 50 years old can actually perform better than someone much younger, no matter how energetic they might seem. That's also a kind of workplace discrimination. Depending on the company, we also tend to discriminate among colleagues based on which college they came from, and that ties into the cultural and national origin discrimination we already talked about.

We tend to affect people very harshly on their mental well-being once we start discriminating against them at the workplace, so we should be very conscious about it. We may think we're doing it just for fun, but it can actually affect the person we're talking about a great deal.

There's one more thing I want to bring up: for women, especially during maternity or pregnancy, people tend to treat them as less productive, or once they return from leave, they find the workplace less friendly, as if their productivity or performance has decreased. Social media is a very strong force today, we scroll through a lot of videos on Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube where people are actually educating others about this. A few days back, I saw a video on Instagram where workplace discrimination around maternity was discussed, and it showed that maternity or pregnancy doesn't stop you from being as productive as you were before and after. So these are all categorized as discrimination too.

Gautam: Thank you so much, Eva. Considering you're in a senior HR position and one of the leadership voices here, how can leaders and HR address the issue of workplace discrimination? It's not an easy matter to discuss, because a lot of people don't want to come forward and speak about it.

Eva Krishna: You might be aware that once you join a company, there are a lot of legal aspects covered during training or onboarding. We can actually make workplace discrimination a dedicated training module that every person who enters a company goes through, reads about, and gets informed on, so the person committing it is aware it can have legal implications. We can introduce this training module at the start of the company sessions, so it at least plants a seed in someone's mind that doing this can lead to consequences. That's the first thing I'd suggest.

Secondly, once a person is bold enough to come forward and speak to a leader, the leader should be personally able to listen to it. The leader shouldn't listen just to respond, there have been a lot of instances where simply sitting and listening to the person solves half the problem, and the person also feels heard, and that action is actually being taken. So even if it isn't possible to immediately make a policy or take formal action, you should at least assure that person and do something, whether that's documenting it, issuing a warning letter, or something similar, so that person can trust you and trust the organization, that the organization won't be against them and will take action for them. The organization should stand with that person from the moment they file a complaint, that's the kind of confirmation they need.

Gautam: I think you made a great point here, and that's why at Vantage Circle we have our own product called Vantage Pulse Survey, where feedback surveys and employee surveys are completely anonymous, and workplace discrimination and diversity and inclusion are an important part of it, where employees can describe if they're feeling uncomfortable in their organization. I think addressing this issue should start right from the hiring stage, like you said, because that's when people get more exposure and the courage to speak up that yes, this is a safe workplace.

Thank you so much for that response. I remember you mentioning how women get subjugated or discriminated against during the maternity or pregnancy period, but overall, women do get subjugated at some point in the workplace. So do you believe promoting gender equality, diversity, and inclusion helps nurture workplace equity and decreases workplace discrimination?

Eva Krishna: You've made a lot of good points here, but I'd like to say one thing: gender equality and diversity, everything is being done, but women as individuals need to take a stand for themselves. Women need to stop thinking they're equivalent to a man, or that they need to become like a man, they're more, if not more, we need to develop ourselves as women. Nowadays, when you talk to people, you'll find that women actually want to become like men, and I honestly disagree with this, because if we become a perfect woman in ourselves, we're better than anybody else in this universe.

So my point is: the company will do its part, they'll build diversity policies, gender equality, pay equality, a lot of things, but as a woman, I should take a stand for myself, not think of myself as a man, but develop myself as a woman. There are things we might accept we can't do, and we should start accepting ourselves as women. This is what I practice, and I'd suggest anyone listening start practicing this too: develop yourself as a woman, don't compare yourself to men. And on the legal side, if we see anything wrong, we should stand up, take ownership, and speak up then and there. If we sit back and keep talking about it only within our comfort groups, the problem stays the same, it doesn't get solved.

Gautam: Eva, I think I could just keep listening to you. When you said women have to be women and don't have to try to become like men, I think that's where the difference lies, you don't have to be a man, you can do everything just by being a woman yourself. I think you've made a great point, and this will give a lot of women the courage to become themselves rather than someone else they think they need to be.

Eva Krishna: I think that's a great point, that this discrimination process is sometimes also within ourselves, you tend to feel inferior, thinking "is this why he's saying this to me because I'm a woman?" But at the same time, you need to say, so what, let them say whatever they want, I am just myself, and that's what makes me who I am. It's okay that there are things we can't do, because nobody can do everything in this world, that's accepted, this just isn't my thing. Women, by nature, are soft, polite, and nurturing, and we should try to develop ourselves that way, rather than doing things that make us feel we have to act "manly." I don't think that's something a woman should have to incorporate. Feminism doesn't mean that, and discrimination doesn't end there either, I think it's a completely different, valid point. Accepting differences is what makes an environment equal, that's the step toward equality, where we understand and accept each other's differences. Only then can we truly respect each other. We're made differently, but we should try to master ourselves, rather than wonder why a man wants to become like a woman, or why a woman wants to become like a man. That's what makes me think twice about it.

Gautam: I think when we speak about being different, the first thing that comes to mind is the LGBTQ+ community, or sexual minorities, or any other minority for that matter, someone who is quite different from the conventional. When we speak about this community, what steps must we take to eradicate discrimination against sexual minorities and other minorities in India?

Eva Krishna: If we talk about steps, I already mentioned this: the first thing is to stand up for yourself, because not every time will someone from the company, your manager, or somebody else be there for you. So first, we need to develop ourselves in a way that we can go and confront it and stop it ourselves, then and there. When it comes to promotions or higher pay, if I've performed all year, met my targets, and I see that somebody performing at 80 percent is getting something better than me while I'm performing at 90 percent, I should take a stand for myself. If I don't, that means my 90 percent effort has gone to waste. If I just sit back and say "my manager likes this person more, so they get supported," and only discuss this within my comfort group, nothing changes, the person actually being discriminated against will never step out of their comfort group to raise it, they'll just keep discussing it there, which makes them more vulnerable to the discrimination.

So I think the first step is taking a stand for yourself and being your own supporter, that alone solves maybe 50 percent of it. Then, as I've mentioned from the start, there are a lot of legal frameworks in place, whether at the company or government level, a lot of legal bodies exist, and if we feel something is beyond our control, we can definitely approach them. I think that solves almost 70 percent of it. The rest is discrimination that needs to be dealt with at different levels, depending on the case, but there are a lot of smaller instances of discrimination that can be stopped in the moment.

Gautam: Thank you so much, Eva. With this, we're slowly approaching the end of our conversation today. So overall, how would you like to conclude your thoughts on confronting discrimination in the workplace?

Eva Krishna: For me, there is no real "end" to this, but I'd really say that you have to be your own supporter, you have to be there for yourself. Discrimination is something we also do, knowingly or unknowingly, so we should always look back at ourselves and keep a check and balance on our own behavior too. If we become aware of discrimination and control ourselves, we'll also be able to stand up for ourselves. So let's start with ourselves first, and then take a stand for ourselves. If we feel we've been discriminated against, we should always stand up for ourselves and not wait for somebody else to come and protect us. Nobody, at least in the workplace, is there to protect you, you are your own savior.

Gautam: Wow, I think that's a great point you've made, and I'm so glad you were able to speak to us today on this topic, because you've given us so many insights on discrimination, it was truly an eye-opener. In the end, like you said, the change should begin with us. If we're talking about discrimination and saying it shouldn't happen, then at some point we might also be doing things that offend other people, so we need to have that same cautious mindset ourselves, if I do this, this could happen, and it could equally be considered discrimination at some point. I think that's a wonderful topic you've discussed today, thank you so much, Eva, for joining us today.

Eva Krishna: Thanks a lot, Gautam, thank you so much.

Gautam: And how can our listeners reach out to you, say, if they need to contact you for any reason, any talk, or anything, how can they reach you, Eva?

Eva Krishna: They can reach out to me on LinkedIn, Eva Krishna, they can search for me and reach out anytime.

Gautam: Okay, sure, so you can share your LinkedIn handle if you'd like to.

Eva Krishna: Yeah, sure, we'll share that.

Gautam: On our post, because it's very easy to connect over LinkedIn when you want to connect for professional reasons. Thank you so much, Eva, thank you so much for joining us today, it was a pleasure.

Eva Krishna: Thank you so much for having me, it was a wonderful conversation.

Gautam: It was a pleasure talking to you, and I think our listeners will be so enlightened listening to you on this topic. Again, this was such a sensitive topic, and you made it sound so easy. Thank you so much.

Eva Krishna: Thanks a lot, Gautam, thanks a lot, everybody.

Gautam: Sure, and listeners, please keep listening to the Vantage Influencers Podcast for more such enlightening content on company culture and employee engagement. Thank you so much.

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